Burnt Out Despite "Doing Everything Right"? Reframing Self Care

The full transcript of this episode is below. Lightly edited for readability.

Kelly: Hi Amy, thank you so much for joining us on Wellness Simplified. I’m really looking forward to this episode. I think, you know, we have both experienced burnout and are in the wellness space and looking to make that something that’s accessible and not gimmicky. So yeah, I’m really, really looking forward to having this chat. I like to start by giving people a sense of you and your life. So I like to look at like how did your morning start and how do you set yourself up each day to feel grounded and as much as possible.

Amy: Yeah Yeah, thank you for having me. It’s always great to talk about different topics with people who had similar experiences as well. So I think this conversation is going to be really, really valuable for people listening. My daily actually started a lot different to what it always looked like when I was pre-burnout because now I’m very much about sleep and getting my body as much as it needs and on mornings where I don’t have to set an alarm, I don’t set an alarm. So we’re my partners up before me, which he was this morning, and he feeds our two cats and then they get back into bed and I have one either side of me. I guess I’m like the barrier so they don’t start fighting. I get as close as I can to me and I let myself stay there for another 20 minutes with them and then I have to like wiggle my way out trying not to wake them and that’s usually how I start my days when I’m at home and I get to run my own show and not have to use an alarm which is really really nice for my nervous system and I have a coffee and just a of a slow morning, I’ve walked to the gym. done a workout, come back home and had a couple of meetings and now I get to have a conversation with you. So a pretty slow, boring morning, but exactly how I like it.

Kelly: Nice. I like that. And I like the how you’re saying about not having an alarm. I play with the two because like I do have meetings and I have young kids that I’ve got to get to school and everything. But yeah, I those mornings where you no you don’t have an alarm and you can wake up and just re like whatever you want to do, whether it’s cuddle with a cat or reflect or whatever, it does make a huge difference, I think, in how your nervous system feels.

Amy: No way. Yeah, absolutely. And I think when I first started playing with not having an alarm, it was actually something my integrative GP said to me when I was coming out of chronic stress and burnout, let yourself sleep. And I was at the 5 a.m. club person. That’s what we’re told to do. You know, that’s success is. up at 5 a.m. start your day.

Kelly: Yeah.

Amy: It amazed me at first of all how much my body needed to sleep but then I’m generally awake somewhere between 6 and 6.15. So your body does have that natural clock that it will adjust to. We just need to slow down and give it time to learn what that is. And now I know I’m moving out by 6.30 at the latest. That’s okay for me. If I have something on like I did yesterday, I set an alarm for that and that’s all right.

Kelly: Yeah. Yeah, and I think what you just said is so true is your body knows, but we’re moving so fast and we’re doing all the things that we think we should that we’re not listening to what our body’s actually telling us.

Amy: Yeah, but we’re not taught to listen to our body. We’re just taught to go,

Kelly: Exactly. And listen to everyone else, totally. Well, let’s jump into your story, ’cause like just like me, you got to this work from Burnout. So tell me about what was that experience to you for you and how was it and what it taught you. And then we’ll dive into the details.

Amy: you It’s really surreal to be asked that question and I think we’re going on eight years when I first entered my integrative GP’s office where all I could say was I was tired. I’m so tired and I don’t know why but there’s nothing wrong with me because I’m doing all of the right things. I’m getting up at 5am and I’m doing my gratitude journal on meditation, my breath work, I’m going to the gym, I do weight sessions, I get 10,000 steps in a day, I’m climbing the leadership ladder and I’m showing up to work and I’m enthused and I love my job and anything I’m studying. family time and as you can tell from how I explained it I was doing everything there was a lot but to me it was the right thing to do I think that’s what we’re told to do we’re told success looks like that I was doing all the wellness things I was getting my massages and my money pennies and I was eating the whole foods and I was doing my meal prep and I on paper looked like it was perfect people would say to me gosh Amy how do you keep it all together how do you do it and I think I thrived on that comment but a long way

Kelly: Yes.

Amy: internally, I was falling apart and I tried to hide it for very long time. I actually didn’t know that that’s what was going on at all. so burnout is an instant. And I think sometimes people, because it’s a more common word than it definitely was eight years ago when I experienced it, are saying, I’m going out on a Friday afternoon.

Kelly: Mm.

Amy: You can tie on a Friday afternoon from an intense week, absolutely, but burnout is something that builds over time and it creeps up and you’re in the thick of it and you don’t realize and a napkin doesn’t fix it, a holiday doesn’t fix it, but those are the things I was trying to do because I just thought I was tired and I was doing the right things on paper. And I was so lucky to have friends in the health space and an integrated GP who I worked with for almost two years to rebuild my life. But it certainly wasn’t something that I wanted to own when it happened because I was so attached to the identity of being a high achiever and a high performer and ticking the boxes of success and making sure that I’d gone to university and got a great job and had purchased a house and had a great partner and I’d lived overseas.

Kelly: Mm.

Amy: The idea I think of burnout, we’re talking about it more commonly now as being a workplace phenomenon and I can understand that because there were workplace elements definitely that contributed to my burnout but I also know I played a huge part in it. I’d adopted the rules or beliefs or ways of thinking that I thought life had to be done in order to be right and I think we’re in this point of tension where going out, yes, is work and we see a lot of that but we’re also subscribing to some really unhealthy things even like

Kelly: Hmm.

Amy: not having an alarm some days, that’s also contributing to it. And my journey is definitely, and post reflection, thinking about what are all the pieces of burnout and not just going, it’s a workplace problem, so let’s fix that. And I think that sometimes that’s a different way of taking it on.

Kelly: Yeah. Yeah, totally. And I think what you’re saying about well, several things. Like one, how it creeps up on you. It’s not just like bang. I mean, you might have a experience where it gets so bad that you can’t handle it anymore, but it’s it’s something that’s been, you know, over time getting worse and worse. And also that idea that it’s not just a workplace. Like our lives are holistic. It’s what we’re telling ourselves, it’s what we’re doing outside work. It’s like all of those things come like all of our caring roles, everything kind of coming together. And that experience of then it just being too much. I like the name of so you’re about to launch a book. We just talked about it before we jumped on. It’s so exciting. Yay. and I love the name, wellness paradox. So let’s like unpack the paradox a bit. I mean then you started to just then, but let’s go deeper into that.

Amy: I’m mmm Yeah, I the paradox, or the wellness paradox, really came about because I wanted to write a wellbeing book or a wellness book that was on a self-help book. Definitely not enough of those. I really like sometimes as a wellbeing speaker to get put in a box and it’s like, you can talk about yoga and meditation. I’m not going to do that because we know, and that is the paradox. We now more than ever have more information, more resources, more gadgets, more hacks, more products we can purchase to support our wellness, to be well, to have a great well-being than ever before. That burnout is increasing, overwhelm is increasing, anxiety is increasing, people are unhappy, life satisfaction isn’t where it used to be, especially in the Western world. And we’re seeing people no longer want to show up to the workplace in the way that they used to. And we’re seeing all these differences. Why is it that right now at our fingertips we have more things available to us than ever before to keep as well? But we’re just not. And that’s the paradox. Where have we gone wrong? What has happened? And how did we get to a point where you can order anything without leaving your house that’s supposed to fix you and make you feel better, but it actually doesn’t work?

Kelly: Yeah, yeah, totally. Let’s okay, let’s dive into what’s gone wrong. Maybe we can start in the workplace, looking at how like well being is framed in the workplace, well-being programs and so forth, and where you think that they’re going wrong.

Amy: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, when I say this, I don’t mean to offend any workplace because I think there’s a lack of acknowledgement around everyone’s trying. I don’t think leaders anywhere are sitting around a table going, can we make it worse for our people? No one’s doing that. But when I first experienced my own chronic stress and burnout in the start of 2018, no one at all was talking about well-being for staff or what that looks like in the workplace back then. And I think if it had been more prominent, then someone might have asked me more questions than how are you and me just saying fine and kept going with the day. And so we have this awareness and people do want workplaces to be better and they want to help their staff and they want people to feel safe and connected and fulfilled and they want them to do great work and they want them to feel less stressed, absolutely. But the problem is we have tried to put so many strategies in place that are about the individual. and not the conditions. So where we have a symptom versus cause issue and we are providing things that address the symptoms. People are stressed, they’re overwhelmed, they’re tired, workload’s too high. Let’s put on a morning tea, let’s do a resilience program workshop. let’s put on a coffee van so that people can have that picking up on a Friday. Let’s make sure that we have a yoga class once a fortnight people can attend because that’s going to help people feel less stressed or feel more connected or it’ll be the last little perk for them. And whilst there might be truth in that, You can’t down the dog your way out of high workload. It doesn’t work like that. So we get out of these yoga classes that our workplaces put on for an hour and we think, feel a little bit better. We go back to our computer, we open up our inbox and there’s 200 emails waiting for us and we’ve still got to filter through that. Or we have a social gathering on a Friday afternoon and everyone gets to leave the office at two o’clock and we feel good, we connect, we have a nice time, it’s relaxed. But Monday morning, we’re still dealing with the same dysfunction, the same lack of accountability, the same inconsistencies, the same unsafe workplaces, whatever that might be. And so, yes, we have focused on addressing the symptom, and I’m not saying get rid of morning teas or social gatherings, they do play a role definitely, but unless we’re prepared to also go, and why is this happening? you know, why are people stressed? Why is workload so high? And look at those things and those conditions at the same time. Then we’re going to find that we need more quick fixes because burnout is going to keep increasing. And eventually we’re just going to get to a point where it’s not working and we can’t afford to do that. We have to help people be well, not because they’re at rock bottom or things are hard, although some people are experiencing that, but because we all have a right. to feel good, both personally and professionally. And I think sometimes workplaces don’t know what to do, and everywhere online will say, just put on a yoga class or just have a morning tea. And with desperation, they’re trying to do that, as well as keep everything else moving.

Kelly: Yeah. So as you were speaking, I it was reminding me a former job of mine, I was a director at a human rights organization. I love this organization so much. but I started the job and I was essentially director of three separate like divisions. And I was so overwhelmed and I kept on trying like all the things to to manage it until finally my great uncle, who has he gave me a session with his CEO coach. And I told him the thing, and he said, okay, the solution is you resign. I was like, Are you serious? People pay you money to say this. And he said, No, what you need to do is re-resign and like renegotiate your job with your boss because it’s literally not possible what you’re being asked to do. And like the thought had never, you know, occurred to me. It was just, how could I manage this better? How could I, you know, add like exactly kind of like what you’re saying? How could I add things on? So

Amy: Yeah. today.

Kelly: the actual thing that was being asked of me was not really human humanly possible. Though so my question with that, with what you’re saying is how how do you approach that then with workplaces when resources are poor, there’s increasing demands? Like how do you go, how do you have that conversation?

Amy: Yeah, I actually really believe that some of the most powerful things we can do is ask our people what they want and what would make their life better and make work easy for them because I’m not doing a workplace where people don’t want to do their job. But people actually want to their job and they enjoy the work that they do and they know that it serves a purpose to them. But we can so quickly jump to solutions that we think is the answer, especially as leaders. But unless we’ve asked our people on the ground, we’re guessing, we’re making it up. And I see this time and time again. And sometimes we think it has to be this big grand thing. But more often than not, what I find when I go and I talk to people in small groups and I want to call it a day sessions where I say, you what do you love about your work and what are your stresses and what does that really tangibly look like in your context? And what would you like to see done differently? The solutions they’re asking for are possible. They’re not saying we want more in delay and initiatives that are going to actually make everything magically disappear. It’s very simple on the ground things like we want clear processes. We want to know how to do this and we want it to be efficient. We want better role clarity and job clarity because we’ve expanded and grown too quickly and it’s got a bit messy. So these things are reasonable and practical and pragmatic. But unless we can push a little bit beyond the idea of I’m so stressed or workload is so high and we don’t have that tangible data, it makes sense to want to jump to, we’ll just make sure that everyone gets a nice retreat at the end of the year or a bonus because that’ll make things feel better.

Kelly: Yeah. Yeah.

Amy: because what else do we do? So my first point of call is always go to your people, ask them what it would look like and help them and let them help you design that because I guarantee people have great ideas if we’re willing to think differently about how work can look.

Kelly: Interesting. And I suppose the step before that though is them actually realizing that people in their team are f are facing overwhelm and burnout. So and I think people hide that. I know myself, like I definitely have hidden it several times in my life because like you said, we identify if you’re a certain type of people you person, you identify yourself as a high achiever. And so you don’t want to s admit that you’re like struggling to be able to do it. So what do you think, both for people who are listening as individuals, but also people who are listening who are leaders? Like what are the signs do you think?

Amy: No. Yeah, I think most workplaces usually have some type of well-being or satisfaction post-check or survey that they might be doing with someone do them weekly, whether it’s annually. And we usually ask questions around what does your well-being look like or how stressed are you or do you feel like you’re able to get your job done in the time? And so that’s a really Easy snapshot to be able to capture to begin with, but it’s not enough. We definitely need to go further and ask more questions. And so I always come back to capacity. Do I have the capacity energetically with resources, with time to be able to do the things that I’m asked of? Because if we’ve created an environment for ourselves where we don’t get to sleep some mornings without an alarm, where we don’t get to fully be present for our family, where we don’t get to look after ourselves, and this is what is actually humanly right for us to be able to look after ourselves, be present with our family, then it’s a capacity issue. And that capacity is actually hidden underneath language of stress, overwhelm and burnout. So we’ve got to get better at going, what do we have capacity for and what don’t we? What about me personally? And actually letting some things go and then really, really intentional with what we pick back up.

Kelly: Mm. When you’re working with people in that my experience is there’s usually a push back on letting go, right? So

Amy: Yeah, definitely. People like to hold on to how they’ve always done it.

Kelly: Totally. And I think it’s really interesting, and I don’t know if you find this, but I found in my coaching that there’s also often an identity kind of it’s an identity issue. So, you know, I have to do that to be important. I worked with some people to look at their calendar and it was interesting finding the number of things on the calendar that if when they were honest, they were actually about be like, you know, I had to be at that meeting to be important kind of thing.

Amy: Mm-hmm.

Kelly: Do you find that like how the role of identity in what people don’t want to let go of?

Amy: Yeah, I think this idea of being productive or getting up at 5 a.m. Or making sure our calendar is back-to-back We’ve been told that that’s what our self-worth is linked to with the identity of who we are and also how we’re told we’re worthy and we teach people this

Kelly: Okay. Yes, yes.

Amy: from such a young age, I was actually a school teacher and a school leader and we teach this to our young people. You are worthy by how many A’s you get. You are worthy by what the results are on your exams. You’re worthy by whether or not you go to university. We’re starting to see a shift in this, but we are told from such an early age, even at school, that who we are and our identity is attached to what we achieve that other people can see.

Kelly: Mm-hmm.

Amy: And that’s where we get this confusion of my self-worth is external, no, no, it’s internal. And so when we start to challenge the idea of not being in the 5AM club or not attending every meeting or letting some things go that we used to do, the struggle is actually based on, who am I without it? And am I safe? And am I okay? And are people still going to think I’m enough? And that, I think, is a huge identity shift we don’t talk enough about when it comes to redefining what work is, what success is, and what being well is.

Kelly: Yes, yep. Yeah, I think it’s such an important point. And I think it’s like really the the deeper point that we need to look at is what is your like what is your identity attached to? And really looking at that and how to unpack that and how to release that. And you can redefine like, you know, is it just that I like what’s at your core that is the true, is your true identity, rather than these kind of superficial I’m productive, I’m, you know.

Amy: I’m out.

Kelly: helpful or overly helpful, whatever it is that gets put on top and then we get stuck in actions that then we just can’t be we you know, we do all the right things but we can’t shift them. What work do you do with people to try to help them to shift those identity pieces?

Amy: One of the pieces I think is really essential in the work that I do is helping people understand what success looks like to them. And this is also in the wellness paradox, the last two chapters, I talk about the power of average and rethinking success. And for so many of us, we’ve just adopted a version of success, we inherited it, it was passed down and we haven’t actually paused long enough to go, but is that what I believe success to be? What’s a successful life for me? And so before we do any identity shift work,

Kelly: Mm, mm.

Amy: We have to actually know what it is that’s going to add value to our life and how we want to live that. And when we can define that and be comfortable with that and sit with it and feel safe, then we can start to do the identity pieces that allow that to happen and to bring it to life. but that could take a very long time. It’s not instant. can’t go from, drive at 5 a.m. every morning because this is who I am to, I just get up when I feel like it and I have slow mornings. And letting your nervous system know that you’re safe in both of those situations, it’s a big shift. So it happens gradually over time and you’ve got to work on the internal, not just the external change.

Kelly: Yeah, I love that. And w you you said before something about the not enough like it being a a average or enough. What would do tell me that again. I heard it and I wanted to grab it, but then you kept on talking. Tell me.

Amy: One of the last chapters in that book is called The Power of Average. yeah, so this is kind of the wrap up, right? If we design a world that says you have to achieve these things and this is what being well is and this is what success is and this is what being happy is, it always comes with the next goal and the next and the next and…

Kelly: Yes, tell me that. Yes, yes, yes.

Amy: That’s why they’re tired. That’s why it never feels enough in the workplace. It’s about KPIs and financial incomes in our personal life. You you get the career and then you’ve got to get the promotion and then the next promotion or you buy a house and then you’ve got to save for the next house and then you go on a holiday and then you’re going to a fancy holiday and a fancy holiday. And the more often comes out, you get the next phone or you know, there’s always this upgrade. And I think we really over complicated life and it’s okay to just be average at some things or have some average things, but just let it be average. So

Kelly: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Amy: This is something I’ve started to shift in the last probably five or six years post-burnout. It’s like, where am I competing for no reason? And honestly, it’s so freeing to go, I just live in an average house. I don’t need to live in the multi-million dollar mansions, an average house is enough and that’s all we need. Most of my clothes are second-hand and they’re from op shops and they’re really, it’s average. I don’t chase designer labels and feel like I need to do that to prove my worth on something. I’m a pretty boring person because

Kelly: Mm.

Amy: It’s the average that actually allows us to enjoy the moments in life because we’re not constantly racing for the next thing and I don’t think we do that well enough.

Kelly: god, I love that so much. My one of my besties and I, we were talking, she’d done this parenting course, and so we were always talking about like how could we better be better parents? And you you were trying to do this while working full-time and all the things. And this course said to her that you only have to get it right 30% of the time. I’m like, no way, 30% of the time. So then I was doodling like 30% as I was talking to her, and I was like,

Amy: Yeah.

Kelly: Shit, this looks like the om symbol. So then we were joking that we were gonna get like ther thirty percent tattooed on our wrist and we’d look like we were really enlightened because it looked like the om symbol, but really we were just saying we only had to get life right thirty percent of the time.

Amy: Thank you. Absolutely, like just pick one thing to be 100 % out and let everything else be 30%. Like it’ll be okay.

Kelly: Totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And even the hundred percent to be honest, you know, because like I would love to be an amazing parent one hundred percent of the time. Like, no way, it’s not actually realistic. So yes, strive, pick some things that are truly matter to you, but like even there, like trying to be one hundred percent is is not really plausible.

Amy: Yeah, it’s just it’s just the one thing like 100 % at making lunches this week. That’s it.

Kelly: Yeah, yeah, totally. Cool. I love it. Yeah. So are there things let me just have a think about what we’ve talked about. So once people go into this, like, okay, let’s say people are listening and they’re they’re part of a workforce, but they’re not they’re not leaders. How would you encourage them and they’re feeling they’re feeling at least a little overwhelmed? What are some of the processes that you’d recommend for them to start doing? Some of the reflection points and things that you’d recommend that they do? You’ve mentioned some of them, but let’s just kind of go over them.

Amy: Yeah, there are a number of things that you can do in the workplace and I think sometimes it’s tricky when knowing your lingas or people around you don’t see what you see. And I think this is where we have to be aware of

Kelly: Yes.

Amy: What am I attached to that’s real and what’s not? What’s in my circle of control and what’s not? So again, this is identity work. Sometimes we get so invested in things because our self-worth is attached to being in everything, but it’s not really for us. And I was delivering a leadership session this week, actually, and I got asked this question, you know, how do we deal with all of the little stresses that come your way when actually they may not be in your control and you can’t do anything about them, but you still got to do them as part of your job. And I said, well, one of the mantras we use in our family actually is it’s not that

Kelly: Yes.

Amy: And sometimes we attach a level of seriousness to everything, but sometimes just aren’t that serious. I don’t it’s a bit like just be a little bit average. And so when we’re in our workplace and we’re feeling a bit overwhelmed, one of the tasks I started to do was look at my list and go, what’s very serious? Like what do I need to do today so tomorrow will be better? What are the things that I can actually wait? What are the things I can delegate? And to be really honest, I wasn’t great at this to begin with, and I used to sit with my leader who was really supportive of me and go, these are all the things I’m going to do this week. Can we work through them with me and say, which is the priority? Like, what do I actually have to do? What could maybe wait? And then she added a list for me and that list was why are you even telling yourself you have to do this Amy? I don’t even know where this came from. making it up. You’re having a high performer in me. And so I think there are different things around being able to be really clear on what must happen, what we can pause, talking to people, talking to leaders, talking to colleagues, how are you tackling it? What do we need to do? Does the timeline work? Do we have capacity? Because we tend to like suffer in silence.

Kelly: Yeah, yeah. Yes.

Amy: and think, gosh, I can’t say I’m not coping because then people will think I’m not good enough and I’m not a good enough employer and they’ll start to judge my professionalism and whether or not I actually have competence to do my job. And we’ve got to let that go. We’ve got to build workplaces where people are healthy and happy to talk about what they’re working okay with and whatnot. And sometimes we wait for something magical to happen so that can exist. But how do leaders know we need it if we don’t ask, if we don’t speak up, if we don’t talk about those things? So I’m a believer in doing our own work, ourselves and going,

Kelly: Mm.

Amy: what must happen, what mustn’t, where’s the overwhelm coming from, what’s it telling us? But am I letting someone know? Am I actually telling someone about this or am I just crossing my fingers I’ll cope and won’t collapse?

Kelly: Yeah. Yeah, I love that. And I wonder if there’s a way to kind of almost kind of put that into your into your week. Like as you’re planning your week, reviewing all those tasks and really questioning what’s actually crucial and what are you adding that, like you said, I love how you said that you went to your manager and she was like, Why are you even doing this? Cause when I was in the last organization where I was leading, I would literally be talking people down from doing things constantly. Like, why you don’t need to do that.

Amy: Yeah. You know that, do you?

Kelly: And I think I think there is so many kind of things that we put on ourselves. So do you personally like when you plan your week, do you have a process where you do some of these things where you question, like, do I really need to be doing that, Amy?

Amy: Yeah, and it’s taken a long time to get comfortable with not doing everything instantly and not thinking everything’s urgent because it’s a practice because we tell ourselves that everything needs to be on now to this, you know, extreme level of 100 % perfect and if I don’t do it I’m not good enough and so we’ve got to get comfortable with knowing that’s not true. And so I actually have a very different way of looking at my week now compared to when I first started working for myself compared to when I was actually an employee or a teacher and a school leader. So now at the moment it’s a lot more flexible and there’s a lot more freedom and I think if I went back into a corporate role I would take some of these tips and techniques as well. I actually don’t do anything before 8am. sometimes nine, at 8am. And I have that whole morning from 5am, I don’t get up at 5, but it’s still in my calendar at 5. From 5 to 8am as morning routine. Now what that routine looks like varies on how I feel. Yesterday I just went for a walk because I had to be in the city by 8.30. This morning I went to the gym. On Tuesday I went for a run. Like it just looks so different. So I don’t have this rigid schedule that I used to follow, a phone and wake up.

Kelly: Just in case. Nice.

Amy: 510 meditation, a 515 journal, 520 coffee, 530 on the way to the gym, and that’s how strict it was. I now look at my calendar and go, well, what must I do? What must I do for next week? And I time block, but it doesn’t mean I’m gonna do that thing exactly, because I also go, well, how do I feel and what’s happening? Of course, if I have other commitments, booking, speaking, I can’t negotiate that, that’s little bit, but for my own time, and then I also add in buffer time, or rest time. Now, I didn’t do this before at all, obviously.

Kelly: Yeah. Yeah. so important. Yep. Yep, yep.

Amy: And I think, and this is what I do advise on workplaces too. And I often hear as leaders, know, we always have our door open and we have an open door policy or we’ll hot desking and we’ll really encourage collaboration. That’s great. I understand all of that. But how are we supposed to get our work done if we’re constantly interrupted and there’s noise and people around us? If I ever went back into corporate or into the teaching world or when I work with leaders and workplaces on this, say, pick times in your calendar that you call deep work or focus time. You’re not available. Close your door. Work if possible. Let people work from home during those deep work and focus times. Maybe if your workplace can, people can choose to do them at 7 a.m. to 9 a.m. and they don’t have to. doesn’t have to be between nine to five anymore because we’re seeing such shifts in this. So the things I do now are very different to what I did when I was experiencing chronic stress and burnout. But I think the idea of scheduling blocks, having a buffer time, having rest time, and not being so strict really can help with working with how you feel and your energy as well.

Kelly: Yeah, love that. And have you read Carl Newport’s book, Deep Work? Yeah, it’s such a good such a good Yeah, it’s awesome. I agree that those like time blocks and definitely as a leader, like you can’t ’cause I’ve I’ve coached leaders and that feeling of like where they’re constantly on. that’s so so stressful and like

Amy: and so it’s quite like to me, yeah. Yeah.

Kelly: Absolutely. So I think that’s really important. The time blocking th not the time blocking, the taking like buffers. I am not very good at that and I think that that’s so good. I add it now into my cal like into my calendar because I have typically not been good at it. But it otherwise you’re feeling like you’re constantly kind of rushing from one thing to the next, right? Yeah.

Amy: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I even in terms of blocking don’t very rarely and if you go into my calendar you can’t book a meeting on a Monday or Friday.

Kelly: Nice.

Amy: So I don’t take meetings Mondays or Fridays. I work occasionally. facilitate to leave a keynote on those days if requested. But if you were to into my calendar and book a meeting, you can’t get a Monday or Friday meeting because I use Mondays to set up and make sure I’m prepared, know what I have to do. And on Fridays, it’s a wrap up. And so even knowing that I have those two days to work how I need to work gives me that ability to be more present.

Kelly: Love it.

Amy: Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday when I do have meetings and things like this because otherwise every day it’s like chop change, chop change. So even that as a working rhythm is something I’ve introduced that really helps.

Kelly: Yeah. And you mentioned about also scheduling in downtime. Do you do that during the day? And if so, what does that look like for you?

Amy: Yeah, absolutely. I actually move right now and sitting not at my work desk. I split my laptop around and I’m sitting at my craft desk. So I have a work desk and a craft desk back to back.

Kelly: nice.

Amy: and this all else had a painting or a project or something I’m working on. So sometimes I might go, I just need a 20 minute break. I’ll just jump to the other side of the desk and like work on this painting that I’m doing or do this coloring in or whatever it is. So that time is in my day in little moments. But I also know for about three o’clock, I guess it’s the teacher in me, I know that that break in the afternoon, I’ll go for another walk. I do Sudoku puzzles. I spend time with my cats. I’ll do some house things. And so my day has those rhythms where possible to allow me that I know energetically at three o’clock. I know I know a good decent break and I might come back at five to do another hour but that’s about it. So I’m very aware of where my energy peaks and troughs throughout the day now and I plan work around those things.

Kelly: Mm. Okay, I really love what you said there in terms of because we’re all and that’s the thing, like everybody is unique, but I think for the people listening is really paying attention to how how your energy peaks and troughs, because you know, my partner can work into the night and if I try that, I will literally like I try it sometimes and it fries me and so I just can’t do it.

Amy: Hmm. Yes.

Kelly: But I think for everyone, like feeling like when are you most energetic? When is your body craving that kind of rest? And then as much as you can planning your day around that. And I love that you do creative projects. That’s so cool.

Amy: Yeah, I find that actually really helps too. If I feel like my head’s heavy, I’ve got high cognitive load, or I can’t think past an obstacle, go and do something completely different. Go for a walk, go to the movies, do a puzzle, do some painting. This is where we’ve forgotten that play and joy and fun isn’t just for children. We actually need it to help balance everything else. But because we’ve created these like intense high pressure environments where we work all of the time, one of the reasons we have this,

Kelly: Yes. Mm. Yes.

Amy: burnout, this stress, this depletion is because we don’t have joy in our day. We don’t have fun. We don’t have time just to do things for the sake of doing them that we enjoy. And we’ve limited the idea that that is for children alone when adults need it. And so think we’ve got to do that. We’ve got to encourage that. Go and find ways to do that.

Kelly: Totally. Yeah, totally. Cause so many people like they’ll have breaks and I’m if you’re not looking on video, I’m putting it you know, in between commas because then they’re just scrolling or like, you know, checking their bloody LinkedIn or whatever the hell it is. It’s not a break. I yeah, like I think a really deliberate like I love getting out into nature or or I like dancing, like something that’s that’s actually not work and is not on a computer or a phone, ideally.

Amy: Yeah. It’s not right. What? Absolutely, absolutely. The idea of I’m resting when I watch TV at night or when I’m scrolling on my phone, it’s not rest. And I know some people don’t. appreciate that because that’s the only time I have but we do have time like look at your screen time look at how much time you’re spending on it look at how long you’re on social media for five minutes scrolling you could replace that with five minutes of drawing or five minutes of for a walk around the block or five minutes of actually sitting down and just doing some breath work and the benefits of that would file out five minutes of scrolling on social media.

Kelly: Yeah, absolutely. Yep. Yep. So maybe for those of you listening, doing a little bit of an audit of how you’re actually arresting.

Amy: Yes. Yeah, I think, yeah, and you know, it’s hard, right? Because we want to be on socials and we especially if you’re a business owner and you do those things, but I even set my social media apps to five minute timers. So after four minutes, it goes black and white and then on five minutes, it kicks me out. So you can do something like that because even though I know the things, not always that disciplined. So I have, I do use things like that as well.

Kelly: That’s cool. Yeah. I use brick now because I tried all the things to get myself to stop, but then they’re designed to be addictive. And like you can pretend that it’s a problem with your willpower, but we all have problems with our willpower because we try to use it so much. So you might as well, where you can, make it easy. So brick, if you’re listening and you don’t know what it is, it’s this I have no affiliation, I just find it useful. You literally get a physical brick and then you set up like I have a work.

Amy: I don’t know. Yeah. What? What? Yeah.

Kelly: time schedule where I can’t access social media and other things. And then I have a nighttime, which has this has been a game changer for me. So I can’t scroll Instagram or whatever at night. and you literally, if you want to override it, you literally have to go in and like tap the brick and you try to put it somewhere out of the way. So you make it as I mean that’s the whole thing about habits making them and breaking them to break them. You want to make it as as inconvenient as possible. No, super cool.

Amy: Thank Another That’s it.

Kelly: I had a question for you, which, you know, going changing subject slightly, and maybe this is my interest as I’m a mum, and you’ve worked in in schools, what’s your take on you know, what schools, teachers, kids, parents, like what promotes well-being for our children and the people supporting them?

Amy: Yeah, this is a really interesting question and I want to be really mindful of what I share and what I say here knowing that school is doing the best they can and parents are doing the best they can and the world’s gotten complicated and I love that we have more education and knowledge and language around well-being and what it means to be well, but sometimes I think we are so focused on that.

Kelly: Yeah.

Amy: We have let go of what else we know children and people need to be able to develop and function and to be able to feel safe. Taking risks, playing, being bored, letting our kids fail from time to time, doing things that are hard even if they don’t like it. We need these things to be able to develop and function as full humans and sometimes we can see and I see this in adults too, if I have good wellbeing I should never be stressed. If I have good well-being, then I shouldn’t have to try out things that are hard and make me feel uncomfortable. If I have good well-being, I should never feel anxious. And none of that is true. Well, well, it’s about knowing that we can adapt to situations, we can thrive in certain areas, we can work with the highs and lows of life. And I think sometimes with children, we decided that well-being means we’re safe and we’re happy and everything is easy.

Kelly: Hmm. No.

Amy: And that’s not how life is. And so sometimes I worry that with an emphasis on well-being, are we taking away from children the skills they need to develop in order to do life well? And I know we want our kids to feel safe and supported and to feel success. And as a teacher, I absolutely would want that for students as well. But from time to time, failing is OK. From time to time, doing things you don’t like is OK and doing harder things. And I remember this

Kelly: Mm. Yeah.

Amy: a time where I used to teach kindergarten. I’ve talked to kindergarten right through to U10 and I remember a kindergarten prep student first day and the parent came up to me and said, oh they’re feeling really anxious about school. They’re really worried about them starting and my response to that was, that’s normal. That’s okay. They’ve never been to school before. Feeling anxious is a normal response and we want to jump so quickly to making sure that our children are happy all the time but we’re not letting them feel this full experience of what it is to be human. And so sometimes I wonder if my teacher had on

Kelly: Yep. Yep. Mm.

Amy: How are we going to be able to do both of these things well and let people know and parents know that’s okay to fail and to feel anxious and to be unhappy from time to time?

Kelly: Yeah, I I think that’s so crucial. It for all of us really. Like a key lesson for me, I lost both of my parents in a short amount of time. It was very traumatic experience and it taught me something so clearly is like you can’t like the only way through is to fully allow whatever is there. So not fighting being anxious or being sad or whatever, but just fully allowing it. And and the more you allow those feelings, the more they come, you know, they wash past you. And I try to encourage that with the children as well. Not this, you know, there is this sort of superficial like trying to, you know, trying to be happy and strong and so forth that I see sometimes of like trying to make everything positive really quickly. And I think that actually in the long term, in the long run, gets you stuck.

Amy: Yes.

Kelly: in emotions. So that fully allowing and I love the boredom one that you mentioned as well because I think we try to overstimulate kids and ourselves actually to be honest. We’re all overstimulated. Whereas just like doing nothing is when your creative genius comes through and you can actually, you know, like we said at the it’s kind of tying back to what we said at the start. You actually have to stop and not be doing so much to hear your body and your own wisdom.

Amy: Yeah. Yes. I will.

Kelly: So yeah, boredom is awesome. I grew up on a boat and I didn’t have like a TV or all of those things. So when I see the way that kids are like so overstimulated these days, yeah.

Amy: Absolutely. Amazing! Yeah, I grew up in the country. A birthday treat for us was driving an hour to go to McDonald’s. I can’t remember that being my, that was the thing you did on your birthday. then, know, I grew up in the 90s, we had 14 YouTube channels, no one had internet, we didn’t have a lot of money, my mom didn’t drive until I was about eight. Like, we just made our own fun. That’s what we had to do. It fun. That’s it.

Kelly: Yeah. Yeah, totally. And you were probably like way more creative because of it. Yeah, awesome. Is there something that you feel like I haven’t asked you that I should have?

Amy: Oh, that’s such a great question. I mean, we could take this in so many different ways. I think sometimes one of the questions I get asked a lot is, where do I start and what do I do if I feel like I’m so, if I’m doing everything right, like I was. And I get asked that a lot. I get asked it from individuals. I get asked that question from workplaces. We’re already doing all the right things, but it’s not working. And my response to that and my answer to that is like, I felt like that too. And my integrative GP said,

Kelly: Mm.

Amy: obviously you’re not doing the right things and sometimes you don’t want to know that right? It’s like oh I’m not doing all the right things and even that idea of using the word right is something that we can get attached to and hey

Kelly: Ha ha ha.

Amy: My response to workplaces and people is there is no right and there is no one way to be well or happy or successful and it will change in seasons and change for people. And I think right now we’re trying to box it or trying to checklist it or trying to optimize it and make it all fit into one space. But actually the idea of being well and successful in the way the world is right now can be defined by you. and by the people in your workplace or by a team and it’s okay if that changes. It’s okay if what you thought wellness was for you yesterday is not the same as today and I think gosh what I used to do 10 years ago that I could do because 20 years ago at 20 is very different to what I can do now at 40 and we have to be okay with that. You know we have to go with the seasons of life.

Kelly: Charlie. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I just released recently a podcast solo podcast episode about like the habits that we do when we were in our twenties and thirties. And then as a woman, once you hit your forties, those actually like are so counterproductive. It’s not funny. So absolutely. I always like to end these episodes taking it back to sit like the whole notion is to simplify things. And if people listen to this and they feel inspired,

Amy: Amen. Yeah.

Kelly: So you’ve started to answer it there, but what’s like one thing that you would like it can be a habit or just one thing that they could do this week?

Amy: Yeah, great question because everyone wants to know, right? Like what’s the one thing science tells me to answer this question by saying sleep better, sleep more. I ask this question a lot of people too, you know, what’s the one thing everyone should do more for making their well-being better and to help with their wellness and the answer is always sleep. I think that’s one of the most underutilized four things everyone has access to. But it’s hard, it’s complicated. The sleep hygiene is a whole thing in itself to learn and develop and

Kelly: Uh-huh. Yeah.

Amy: We haven’t, again, given ourselves the grace we do sometimes for our children to ourselves to prioritize that sleep. So the science piece in me wants to say just sleep more, but the practical piece in me wants to say, if there’s one thing that you can do that’s going to benefit you or your wellbeing or how you feel, it’s actually asking yourself, what am I doing for me? And what am I doing because I feel like I have to keep up? Because I feel like I’m competing. And sometimes we just want a quick fix. Like it’s much easier for me to say sleep or learn to meditate, but.

Kelly: Mm. Mm.

Amy: I don’t know if that’s what you need. So what I would encourage people to do is just take five minutes to go, what am I doing for me because I feel like it’s for me and what am I doing where I’m competing. One of the most superficial things that comes to mind when I say that is I used to go and get my nails done every fortnight. It’s self care, right? Getting a manicure, that’s what women are told, we go and get our nails done. But the stress of going to the nail salon and sitting in the noise and the bright lights and having to choose the color and inhale all of those fumes and wait.

Kelly: Yes.

Amy: on a Saturday morning when I think about that now, I’m like, never again am I doing that. No way. And so even that idea of manicures are good for self care, that’s what we should be doing, get your nails done, is such an adopted version of what we’re told self care is, I don’t know, maybe that’s a stressor for you like it was for me as soon as I started to not do that anymore, to stop doing it. my gosh, what a more relaxing Saturday morning I was having.

Kelly: Mm. Yep. Love it. Yeah, do it. I mean, I love, love, love sitting by the water where I live with a journal and my cappuccino and like journaling on these questions. So maybe that’s the invite for everyone. Like just take some time to yourself. You could even take a photo and send us both on social media if you want, you know. but yeah, take that time to reflect on that, on on that and see what it is that you could

Amy: Yeah Get that be nice.

Kelly: One thing maybe that you could let go of. That’s a great idea. Thank you so much. Now, of course we want to know your book’s about to come out and where can people find you? Where can then they buy the book? We’ll put all the links in the show notes as well. And how can people work with you?

Amy: Boo! Yeah, it’s called the bonus paradox. So you should be able to find it in bookstores, maybe airports, definitely on Amazon. And you can grab a signed copy from me, amygreen.com.au is my website, Amy Green on LinkedIn, as well as Instagram. So you can find that and welcome with me. can go with speaking, coming into workplaces, and then also that individual coaching element as well if you’re thinking, gosh, what does success look like for me? As someone who wants to be well and also create a life that you would have a good average at times, right? I think that’s we need to do more of. So all of my info is on my website, aimgreen.com.au, or just find me on socials as well. More than happy to have a chat.

Kelly: Awesome. Well it was so great having you on. I loved it. Like such a great conversation. I’m gonna have a coffee and and journal on that question tomorrow morning. Yeah, I will, I will. Thank you so much.

Amy: Yeah, I know, can’t wait. Thank you.